3.5 rules nerfed for smallies?

[Aciiid]

Ok so I find out last night that my weapons are supposed to not do as much damage.... Time for a quibble:

Taken from Equipment.rtf from d20 web site:

Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon�s size category isn�t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon�s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Lets say we have a shortsword. A human size character wielding it it would become a small weapon for them and therefore do small damage. A small character wielding the same weapon (not a smaller version of it) it would become a medium weapon for them and so they would do medium damage.

Discuss.....

 

[Cullhaven]

I know from LARP and re-enactment that small people or large people using the same weapon isnt really a factor in the hardness of the hit - it goes on the strength of the individual. I dont think that there would be much difference between say a 4 ft guy and a 7 foot guy in damage terms because of their size, how hard they hit - I.e. str + dex I suppose, should really be the "damage"factor.

 

[Sorontar]

I know from LARP and re-enactment that small people or large people using the same weapon isnt really a factor in the hardness of the hit - it goes on the strength of the individual. I dont think that there would be much difference between say a 4 ft guy and a 7 foot guy in damage terms because of their size, how hard they hit - I.e. str + dex I suppose, should really be the "damage"factor.

A 4 ft guy in all likelihood wouldn't pick up a 2 hander whereas a 7ft guy would. Yes strength is important but size does matter

 

[Gottaa]

I'd have thought irrespective of size a weapon can only do 'x' damage itself, the only other thing that would affect it would be strength.

Though it does kind of make sense a tiny dagger in the hand of a 4ft person could be rather painful while in the hands of a 7ft person he'd have trouble holding it, in the same way a 4ft person would struggle to use a 5ft two handed sword

 

[Sorontar]

Ok so I find out last night that my weapons are supposed to not do as much damage.... Time for a quibble:

Taken from Equipment.rtf from d20 web site:


Lets say we have a shortsword. A human size character wielding it it would become a small weapon for them and therefore do small damage. A small character wielding the same weapon (not a smaller version of it) it would become a medium weapon for them and so they would do medium damage.

Discuss.....

From what I can tell

A human sized shortsword would be classed as a one handed weapon (negating weapon finesse) and do 1d6 damage for a diddyman

BUT

You would take a -2 to hit because it wasn't designed for your size.

Weapon Size


Oooo weapon shrinkage

 

[Aciiid]

I agree that if you took a smaller weapon it would do smaller damage, that's not what I'm saying though. A normal size (and weight) shortsword so it should do normal shortsword damage. Yes the size of a monster should be taken into account as well, ie a gargantuant creature wielding a gargantuant dagger would not be wieldable by a small character, but a large creature/player could wield it two handed (as gargantuant is 2 sizes larger).

A small character wielding a shortsword becomes a medium size weapon for a them, but it's still the same weapon and is as wieldable (more so as it's more suited for a smaller character).

 

[Cullhaven]

In my experience, a 7 foot guy using a "shortsword" or a 4 foot guy using a shortsword both use it in exactly the same way - as a short 1 handed hitting weapon. In that situation size has no bearing on how much of a cut it does - its all down to strength. No way would a standard shortsword be classed as a two handed weapon. I just gave my larp Gladius (Yes I know a Gladius was a stabbing weapon but for this experiment its the same size as a short cutting sword like a Seax) to my daughter who is four foot eight, and then took it myself ( 6ft ) and she felt quite comfortable using it one handed. Now if she was a strong dwarf say, and i was a weak human, she'd probably hit much harder with it coz of her strength. I added dex as a dextrous person could get a much better swing than a clumsy oaf, providing a deeper cut and in game terms more damage.

 

[Sorontar]

I agree that if you took a smaller weapon it would do smaller damage, that's not what I'm saying though. A normal size (and weight) shortsword so it should do normal shortsword damage.

A small character wielding a shortsword becomes a medium size weapon for a them, but it's still the same weapon and is as wieldable (more so as it's more suited for a smaller character).

Yes it does the 1d6 damage but becomes classed as one-handed NOT light and also takes a -2 because it has not been designed to be wielded by a diddyman.

A human sized shortsword is not a easy to wield for a diddyman as the balance points are in the wrong place yadda yadda yadda.

If you want a weapon that does 1d6 damage without the minus then you would get a longsword made for a small person BUT it would still be one handed and you could not finesse it.

 

[Sorontar]

Too clarify what we are talking about is a gnome, not a strong dwarf.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#gnomes

He's probably less than 3'6 and a normal shortsword is about 2 'long, so a normal shortsword would be the equivalent of a longsword in size, just not designed for him.

Note: a shortsword in D&D is a stabbing weapon so a gladius would be okay to test (just not a foam one with someone a foot too tall)

 

[Aciiid]

I agree the longsword is not designed for him as it is a medium size weapon, he would have to use it two handed. A shortsword is a small size weapon though and as being small a gnome can wield it one handed (just like a human could wield a longsword one handed). Just as human wielding a shortsword becomes a light weapon for the human.

Weapon training means all variations of a shortsword, and as far as weapon balencing goes it would not matter. If all medium short swords were heavier in the handle (for example) then it would all be part of learning to use a shortsword. All characters are assumed to have already gone through some training (for a couple of years or so) before they become their class and sparring with a shortsword during that time to get proficiency would mean you could use it. If you were weapon proficient with shortswords (as a gnome rogue/fighter/... would be) then I can't see why you would get a -2 modifier. Yes a mini short sword might be better suited to you, but that's not the issue here. The issue is you've been trained to use a shortsword and all shortsword variants.

 

[Sorontar]

I agree the longsword is not designed for him as it is a medium size weapon, he would have to use it two handed. A shortsword is a small size weapon though and as being small a gnome can wield it one handed (just like a human could wield a longsword one handed). Just as human wielding a shortsword becomes a light weapon for the human.

Weapon training means all variations of a shortsword, and as far as weapon balencing goes it would not matter. If all medium short swords were heavier in the handle (for example) then it would all be part of learning to use a shortsword. All characters are assumed to have already gone through some training (for a couple of years or so) before they become their class and sparring with a shortsword during that time to get proficiency would mean you could use it. If you were weapon proficient with shortswords (as a gnome rogue/fighter/... would be) then I can't see why you would get a -2 modifier. Yes a mini short sword might be better suited to you, but that's not the issue here. The issue is you've been trained to use a shortsword and all shortsword variants.

I was talking about a gnome sized longsword by the way which he could used one handed.

A gnome picking up a human sized shortsword is the equivalent of a gnome picking up a gnome sized longsword, except the longsword was weighted/designed to be picked used by small people.

You have trained to use the shortsword yes, its the size of the thing that makes you incur the -2 as its probably a foot longer than a shortsword for a gnome and not so bloody short anymore in design for a diddyman.

As a medium sized character I do not expect to be able to kill a minotaur and then pick up his 3d6 Greataxe without a minus because of the size of it.

 

[Sorontar]

I'd have thought irrespective of size a weapon can only do 'x' damage itself, the only other thing that would affect it would be strength.

Okay missed this bit but I'll have a go at making some sense of the difference in damage.

I hate using real world examples as they normally fall flat on their arse but I'll go with it nonetheless.

Lets say we have a shortsword made for a gnome and a shortsword made by a human being swung by a gnome.

Ignoring the oversized -2 to hit, the gnome will be stabbing with a lighter weapon which may well be narrower when using the gnome sized weapon. Thus his strength may well cause the blade to sink the same depth into the target but the hole will be smaller (think bullet calibre I suppose)

Now take a hammer, obviously the human sized hammer will have more weight behind it in the head thus causing more damage from the weapon itself.

Thats as much sense as I can bring to the difference in damage before I go and have a coffee

 

[Zed]

Sorontar is correct though.

The argument here as i see it is:

Can a gnome weild a Human sized shortsword? The answer is yes, absolutely but that weapon is not designed to be wielded by the Gnome so the gnome takes a -2 to hit.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can�t make optimum use of a weapon that isn�t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn�t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder�s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon�s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can�t wield the weapon at all.

So said gnome finds the weapon balance wrong, its all clumsy and what not. To compensate he throws it away and goes to see his favourite gnome weapon smith and buys a gnome Longsword ... This is now the same equivalence as that shortsword (D6 damage). If the Humie stood next to him tried to wield it it would be classed as a small longsword and he would take -2 damage.

A Gnome who uses a weapon appropriately sized for a small character uses the small damage rules. Otherwise he takes a -2 penalty to hit from a weapon that is one size category larger.

On top of that the weapon category increases by one type : Light = 1 handed = 2 handed = cannot wield

DnD is abstract and no way represents real life. The rules therefore are what we go on which is simple: using a weapon that is larger or smaller than your size category results in an accumulation of -2 to hit per size category.

 

[Zed]

now half your daughters height to say the 2.5ft my son is and try to get him to comfortably weild the same gladius?

Medium in DnD terms is something like 4ft - 7ft Dwarf is medium, gnome and halfling are small and iirc fairies are tiny or maybe even diminutive.

 

[Zed]

So taking it as red that a gnome or halfling suffer with smaller weapon dice. How do you build to compensate for this problem?

Wizards, cleric, Druids are a sure winner. Simply because they dont need to actually fight. A Gnome druid as well can actually have his animal companion act as his mount. in eberron the Talenta Halflings all ride Velociraptors ;-)

2nd play to strengths:

Halflings are thrown weapon experts. They get +Dex ( for ranged) +1 to attack for small and +1 to attack with thrown weapons. Sneak attack works with thrown weapons out to 30ft as long as you deny them their dex.

The next thing you need to do is focus on Sneak attack damage. As a rogue that should be were your damage comes from. Sure a small rapier is a D4 damage weapon but its finessable to you (attack with dex) can be dual weilded as a light weapon so it makes you much better in combat. Maximise your abilities to hit vs your damage focusing on triggering sneak attack damage.

For gnomes in combat. There are feats in books that allow you to really ramp up damage: Look at this forinstance:

Whisper Gnome:
1) Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
2) Rogue 1, +1d6 sneak
3) Swashbuckler 2, Dodge
4) Swashbuckler 3, Insightful Strike
5) Rogue 2, Evasion
6) Rogue 3, +2d6 sneak, Weapon Focus: Rapier
7) Rogue 4, Uncanny Dodge
8) Blade Bravo 1, Flourish, Goad
9) Blade Bravo 2, Mobile Fighting, Titan Fighting
10) Blade Bravo 3, Mobility
11) Blade Bravo 4, +1d6 (melee) sneak - 3d6 total
12) Blade Bravo 5, Size Advantage, Underfoot Combat
13) Blade Bravo 6, Two-Weapon Fighting
14) Blade Bravo 7, Small but Deadly
15) Blade Bravo 8, +2d6 (melee) sneak - 4d6 total, Confound the Big Folk
16) Blade Bravo 9, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
17) Blade Bravo 10, Lethal Riposte
18) Rogue 5, +5d6 sneak total, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19) Rogue 6
20) Rogue 8, +6d6 sneak total.

In addition to that, get a Deadly Precision enhancement on each weapon: +2d6 sneak attack damage. 8d6 sneak, 7 attacks a round, +INT to damage, from a thing you just can't hit. Scaaaaa-ryyyy!

So that paltry 1d4 damage fro ma base rapier means bugger all when your doing this. The crazy thing about this build you make yourself Tiny ;-) yes Tiny one category smaller than er small

A Whisper Gnome Warblade would be awesome. Again the base weapon damage is unimportant.

Same goes for halflings. look over things like invisible Blade, Master Thrower and buid for their strengths: Thrown weapons. Eberrons Talenta halflings are all about the boomerang. Its not an awesome damage dealing weapon but with Stormguard warrior it doesnt need to be ... ;-)

 

[Daisaku]

lol, you used the uber melee gnome killing machine build. Tart

Can I play Pun-Pun next?

 

[Zed]

i like it because it show cases what can be done without breaking into 40 books and pushing rules to the limit. Pun pun pushes rules and requires specific interpretations of rules.. But no - hes the BBEG atop the tower

 

[Daisaku]

So long as he's <5, we're fine...

But yea, the Blade Bravo build is definitely a nice one. Always good to see um, 'realistic'? builds from the CharOps...

 

[Zed]

realistic .. but not playable from 1

Like a lot of CharOps builds. so i take the ideas and build em meself.

 

[Cullhaven]

Well to be fair, he never specified gnome in his original post, so I never factored anything that small in.