Dwarves are go!!
- Thread starter Pooner
- Start date
Or to re-rail onto the train of the de-railed thread....
Why don't we just accept that the CUK forums are now a nexus for people that like online gaming but play the same online games in a different way (PvP, Non-PvP, Horde, Alliance, End-game hardcore gamers, Casual gamers), rather than try to futilely pretend that we're all some big happy gang who can play the same game in exactly the same way anymore. It would certainly reduce the bitching when player type A bitches at player type B cos he happens to read the same forum but doesn't want to play the same game in the same way.
The genre has come a long, long way since UO.
Why don't we just accept that the CUK forums are now a nexus for people that like online gaming but play the same online games in a different way (PvP, Non-PvP, Horde, Alliance, End-game hardcore gamers, Casual gamers), rather than try to futilely pretend that we're all some big happy gang who can play the same game in exactly the same way anymore. It would certainly reduce the bitching when player type A bitches at player type B cos he happens to read the same forum but doesn't want to play the same game in the same way.
The genre has come a long, long way since UO.
/can of worms
But by my understand they have always been and will always be a nexus/portal for people to chat/monkey around and generally pass the time when they have nothing better to do.
That doesn't though go hand in hand with never having a "Clan" guild. It's simply a case of people being honest about what they want from an in game guild and deciding if they want to join the Clan's one. If the Clan makes a PvP guild or a PvE for casual fun or a PvE guild for pure raiding (which I'm sure one day will happen) then join the one you want to do, where some of tension comes from is people joining something they are not actually happy with and trying to mould it from the inside. I know not everyone fits into catergories, has other friends, plays odd times, etc, etc but it's not like I've ever seen a mandatory ruling that everyone must play with the Clan in game. So play how you want, play with who you want, but for me I'd rather be playing with "Clan UK" over my head than anything else, if you don't feel the same it's your free choice to play in another guild, but don't try spoiling it for those who want to play with ClanUK.
But by my understand they have always been and will always be a nexus/portal for people to chat/monkey around and generally pass the time when they have nothing better to do.
That doesn't though go hand in hand with never having a "Clan" guild. It's simply a case of people being honest about what they want from an in game guild and deciding if they want to join the Clan's one. If the Clan makes a PvP guild or a PvE for casual fun or a PvE guild for pure raiding (which I'm sure one day will happen) then join the one you want to do, where some of tension comes from is people joining something they are not actually happy with and trying to mould it from the inside. I know not everyone fits into catergories, has other friends, plays odd times, etc, etc but it's not like I've ever seen a mandatory ruling that everyone must play with the Clan in game. So play how you want, play with who you want, but for me I'd rather be playing with "Clan UK" over my head than anything else, if you don't feel the same it's your free choice to play in another guild, but don't try spoiling it for those who want to play with ClanUK.
Treebeard
Ranger of the North
If it was that way it'd be fantastic mate. Problem is whenever a new MMG comes on the horizon the same people, who left for whatever reason or got fed up with the last CUK guild in an MMG because of the crap all get together again, and then the same things happen.
I don't understand it myself. You'd have thought that we'd all have learnt by now that some people/groups just don't go together, and so why even bother in the first place. Just start your own guild with like minded people, and then whoever wants to join/you allow to join, can. I guess a CUK guild is a good way for them to start out in a game as its nice and safe, and then they can bugger off from there to where ever they want.
Git
Your opinion is worthless....
i think tree hit it on the head, when a new Clan starts up in a new MMG those that left come back and it's rinse repeat all over. why they bother i don't know.. I personally don't play with the clan because they don't play the game i do, and well pve isn't my bag never has been.
the other problem i see is some people are arbrasive, moi
but alot are very well relaxed and the two don't always mix another reason for lots of offshoot sections of CUK.
the other problem i see is some people are arbrasive, moi
but alot are very well relaxed and the two don't always mix another reason for lots of offshoot sections of CUK.Yup I'd certainly say that that makes a large part of it. The solution is to have a starter guild as such but make it quite clear from the outset that there is no obligation to stay there, it's merely a jump off point until people are standing on their feet. People who just want to potter around will stay there, people who want other things will leave to do them.
It shouldn't matter a whit what the name tag is floating over your head so long as the people you are gaming with are the people you want to game with. Far too much store is placed on the name over the people that that name represents. Perhaps I'm being obtuse but I cannot see how anyone can spoil your gaming experience (short of in game harrassment) unless you let them.
Treebeard
Ranger of the North
I think its a bad idea tbh mate. I don't think people should up and leave the CUK guild when they find their feet, and certainly not in a disruptive way. How can that be fair to the people who are left behind? A CUK guild should be for people who want to belong to it and follow its ways. Its unfair for people to keep coming back to use CUK as a springboard onto whatever it is they want from the game.
It appears to be happening again in DDO so /shrug. That just appears to be the way it is I guess and people will continue to take advantage of the fact no matter what the mess that keeps getting left behind.
Daerflin unless I'm missing something it's all person choice here. For me at least being in Clan UK is not just about this forum but also about what being in the clan means, to be lazy and quote from Roch :
That's why I want to have "a name" over my head, and you need to really re-read what I actually said, if you want to be in another in game guild then knock yourself out, it's as I said personal choice, what I'm not happy with is someone who doesn't want to play in the Clan UK guild stopping others who do, which is what you were suggesting unless I misread it).
As far as a "Launchpad" guild idea goes I think it's asking for trouble, after all that is how some treated the WoW guild and look how well that's worked out. If you don't want to be in the guild in game don't be, why join it if you know you're going to leave ?
The way some treat the in game guilds wouldn't be put up with in other guilds, and while I wouldn't like to see CUK become like one of them, I also don't want to see people constantly using the Clan and it's members as "Launchpads".
Having been an officer in WoW on the lead up to the exodus from WoW and when it happened I can tell you that does nothing but damage both parties and isn't something we should be looking to repeat. And I can't imagine those that did leave would want to see it all repeated as well ?
That's why I want to have "a name" over my head, and you need to really re-read what I actually said, if you want to be in another in game guild then knock yourself out, it's as I said personal choice, what I'm not happy with is someone who doesn't want to play in the Clan UK guild stopping others who do, which is what you were suggesting unless I misread it).
As far as a "Launchpad" guild idea goes I think it's asking for trouble, after all that is how some treated the WoW guild and look how well that's worked out. If you don't want to be in the guild in game don't be, why join it if you know you're going to leave ?
The way some treat the in game guilds wouldn't be put up with in other guilds, and while I wouldn't like to see CUK become like one of them, I also don't want to see people constantly using the Clan and it's members as "Launchpads".
Having been an officer in WoW on the lead up to the exodus from WoW and when it happened I can tell you that does nothing but damage both parties and isn't something we should be looking to repeat. And I can't imagine those that did leave would want to see it all repeated as well ?
Personally I'm proud to carry the CUK banner whenever I'm in a game, part of the fun of playing the game for me is doing it as part of ClanUK. I'm proud of our history, accomplishments, community spirit and ability to get things done when we all pull in the same direction.
When we play as a community the things that we can achieve are outstanding, but to suggest that individuals should plan use ClanUK as a springboard so that they can take advantage of that community, develop themselves and then leave to do whatever it was they really wanted to do seems wrong to me. I think anyone that goes into a game with the intension of doing that is out of order.
For me if you want to be part of the community and help the community as a whole achieve success then you should make an effort to do something to improve the community. Even if that is simply taking a step back and considering other peoples point of view before launching into some text based tirade against them for something trivial.... which is something that seems beyond some of our members.
If we are to progress into a situation where ClanUK is just these online forums and that we accept that there will be no ClanUK guilds in game anymore then what is the point of ClanUK? Do we just sit here basking in the glory of our past deeds? Would we even need an admissions policy anymore, being a ClanUK member would effectively mean nothing as you're not representing the community in any virtual world. I may as well just open the gates and let anyone in, it would probably lead to busier forums.
When we play as a community the things that we can achieve are outstanding, but to suggest that individuals should plan use ClanUK as a springboard so that they can take advantage of that community, develop themselves and then leave to do whatever it was they really wanted to do seems wrong to me. I think anyone that goes into a game with the intension of doing that is out of order.
For me if you want to be part of the community and help the community as a whole achieve success then you should make an effort to do something to improve the community. Even if that is simply taking a step back and considering other peoples point of view before launching into some text based tirade against them for something trivial.... which is something that seems beyond some of our members.
If we are to progress into a situation where ClanUK is just these online forums and that we accept that there will be no ClanUK guilds in game anymore then what is the point of ClanUK? Do we just sit here basking in the glory of our past deeds? Would we even need an admissions policy anymore, being a ClanUK member would effectively mean nothing as you're not representing the community in any virtual world. I may as well just open the gates and let anyone in, it would probably lead to busier forums.
No you've taken me out of context there Gottaa, the whole Ethos of CUK is something I firmly believe in in the way I conduct myself in an online game. My point was that I (or anyone else) doesn't have to have a tag saying so above their heads - I'm not saying it's a bad thing to have it, just that it is not essential. I take the CUK ethic with me - regardless of what guild name I'm under or game I'm playing.
The simpler answer to Roch's question is that CUK doesn't function as a single entity in online game. Everytime it's tried to function as a single entity it's managed to tear itself apart because you can't have a couple of hundred people who want exactly the same thing from the limited microcosm of an online environment - its not realistic to expect such. The principle CUK ethic is polite, fair, honest gamers. What that ethic cannot encompass or enforce (nor should it) is those gamers must all play a game in the same way at the same pace...and thats where it falls apart.
I'm still not clear on how Gottaa feels that he is prevented from playing in a CUK guild by other members, unless it is because when you have too few a number of people left in the CUK guild you cannot actually do game content. That is unfortunate but equally you cannot railroad CUK members into playing under one banner if their playing styles and progression rates vary as widely as they do. This is exactly why you end up with casual guilds in online games and hardcore guilds - the same types of people gravitate towards those with a similar goals.
In essence all this is why CUK MMG guilds fail. Youv'e got a generally decent bunch of people wanting radically different things.
To reply to Roch's last point - given that all this is true and if you want CUK as an entity rather than an ideal to survive in the MMG environ, it needs to evolve.
Discuss
Taking things in order
I do think it matters what you have over your head, so we'll have to agree to disagree, words couldn't do justice to the feeling of helping someone and hearing how they'd bumped into another clan member a week ago and they had been really helpful as well.
As far as the pace of play, or style it's true a CUK guild can't encompass everyone, but then I don't think it's ever tried, there's been assumptions all around and we all know what that leads to. If people were simply honest at the start they would join the guild to suit there style and have fun, be it under the Clan tag or not.
I don't feel prevented from playing in a Clan UK guild, I read your post and it read as in there should be no more Clan UK guilds which I disagree with. I don't expect everyone to play under one banner, they play where they want with who they want hopefully still though playing in a manner becoming a ClanUK member (as you said).
Guilds fail for very many reasons, but I don't think people want radically different things. Yes some want hardcore raiding, some want DKP, some may even want mandatory attendance, but what 99.9% of the people I've met want is : "To have fun with friends, see what they can see, kill what they can, avoid all the politic stuff which tends to appear in MMO's"
I'd agree it does need to evolve but if it's to be discussed in depth lets do it in the members area cos at some point it's going to be dragging up the past.
I do think it matters what you have over your head, so we'll have to agree to disagree, words couldn't do justice to the feeling of helping someone and hearing how they'd bumped into another clan member a week ago and they had been really helpful as well.
As far as the pace of play, or style it's true a CUK guild can't encompass everyone, but then I don't think it's ever tried, there's been assumptions all around and we all know what that leads to. If people were simply honest at the start they would join the guild to suit there style and have fun, be it under the Clan tag or not.
I don't feel prevented from playing in a Clan UK guild, I read your post and it read as in there should be no more Clan UK guilds which I disagree with. I don't expect everyone to play under one banner, they play where they want with who they want hopefully still though playing in a manner becoming a ClanUK member (as you said).
Guilds fail for very many reasons, but I don't think people want radically different things. Yes some want hardcore raiding, some want DKP, some may even want mandatory attendance, but what 99.9% of the people I've met want is : "To have fun with friends, see what they can see, kill what they can, avoid all the politic stuff which tends to appear in MMO's"
I'd agree it does need to evolve but if it's to be discussed in depth lets do it in the members area cos at some point it's going to be dragging up the past.
Ya we can agree to disagree on that one, it's a personal choice. Not that I'm saying I'd never play under a CUK guild tag of course.
On the contrary it's attempted in every single MMG that CUK participate in. United Kingdoms in Everquest, Unification in DOAC, ClanUK in WoW to name but 3.
A proportion of CUK are certain about their playing intentions and start their own Guilds within the new game from the outset (their reasons vary from "Not wanting to play with member XYZ" due to personality clashes to wanting to play the game in a PvP style or Hardcore powergamer).
The remainder join up under the collective CUK banner guild and then 3 or 4 or 6 months down the line realise that the game isn't panning out the way they envisaged or they like it more/less than they thought and want to progress at a different rate or in a different style and leave to pursue those ends.
It isn't as simplistic as being honest at the outset, for a proportion of the membership they honestly don't know how they want to play the game to start with and find it simpler in having the collective banner of CUK. I don't regard this as being parasitic as for the duration of their tenure they are putting as much into the in game guild as they are taking out of it - if they are not then they are not following the CUK ethic at all and the question must be asked "How the hell did they get into CUK with that attitude in the first place?". This process has been happening in every single MMG that CUK has participated in and to deny that it does occur is ignore a plethora of evidence to the contrary.
Here we will have to disagree. People do want "To have fun with friends, see what they can see, kill what they can, avoid all the politic stuff which tends to appear in MMO's" but as they do want to play the game in different styles at different progressions they split off from the CUK mother guild and form guilds with people who play the game in the same way. Every single MMG that CUK has participated in provides evidence to support this, and to explore how this issue can be reconciled is why I took trouble to post in the first place.
I agree that this discussion would be better served in the open forum as it does transcend WoWs boundaries, can you move the pertinent posts to the general MMG area Roch ?
Nymawae
Eternal Trial Member
Not sure I understand why people that want to play the same game in a slightly different style can't play as part of the same guild with a little bit of consideration and respect for others in the guild. Sure, in some MMG ClanUK should have seperate guilds for PvP and PvE where the game style is different, but minute variations of the same game style? Oh come on!!!
I tend to think it has less to do with the game and more to do with people that enjoy the MMG "special bonus game" of cloak and dagger politics, winding people up, causing arguments and having sekrit agendas . Even splinter guilds of apparently "like minded players" have problems lasting more than a month or so before the politics start again and it implodes...
Some people level / whatever in games faster than others, so what? The strength of having a large group of friends in the guild like CUK is that sure, Joe bloggs who you grouped with at level 5 is now 20 levels above you because he loves to level as fast as possible. There's still lots of alts/ other CUK players around your level though that tend to level slower so you group with them. Sure with 200 people you won't get on with everyone, so what? Just have a little respect and tolerance for other people & play styles. Different play styles don't stop you playing as part of a CUK guild and grouping with other players outside CUK for that matter.
MMGs need more Elves, Warriors, Orcs, Stromtroopers and Jedi and less Drama Queenz
***edit*** As it's the weekend my money is on this thread hitting 12 pages by Sunday night
I tend to think it has less to do with the game and more to do with people that enjoy the MMG "special bonus game" of cloak and dagger politics, winding people up, causing arguments and having sekrit agendas
. Even splinter guilds of apparently "like minded players" have problems lasting more than a month or so before the politics start again and it implodes... Some people level / whatever in games faster than others, so what? The strength of having a large group of friends in the guild like CUK is that sure, Joe bloggs who you grouped with at level 5 is now 20 levels above you because he loves to level as fast as possible. There's still lots of alts/ other CUK players around your level though that tend to level slower so you group with them. Sure with 200 people you won't get on with everyone, so what? Just have a little respect and tolerance for other people & play styles. Different play styles don't stop you playing as part of a CUK guild and grouping with other players outside CUK for that matter.
MMGs need more Elves, Warriors, Orcs, Stromtroopers and Jedi and less Drama Queenz
***edit*** As it's the weekend my money is on this thread hitting 12 pages by Sunday night
See I can't buy into that Nym. Whilst there are undoubtably a certain number of people in CUK who do revel in such "Cloak and Dagger" politics I find it hard to beleive that they have so much power and influence or are so numerous that they manage to destroy every single CUK MMG guild.
If what you say is true, then you might as well pack up CUK right now, because the entire premise for the organisation is built upon a lie. If these people are in positions of power and influence then the entire CUK Higherarchy must be corrupt to allow it to continue, conversely if they are so numerous then the majority of CUK players are being allowed to continue within the organisation without following the Ethical tenets that formed the organisation in the first place.
What I will accept is differences in play style/progression form subgroups within the CUK guild, these subgroups evolve into cliques and in turn these cliques inevitably evolve into splinter groups/guilds. Now that I have seen on a regular basis.
Tolerance is an easy thing to preach, but when you log in and find that you are the 7th man of your level online in a game which supports 6 to a group or you find yourself excluded from groups because "Group X always plays together" it can be a very difficult thing to practice. Saying that we should all get along and everything will be fine is a great concept, but given 200 different personalities which while still being fair and honest gamers have distinctly different agendas - a concept is all it can be, it's unworkable in practice. QED
If what you say is true, then you might as well pack up CUK right now, because the entire premise for the organisation is built upon a lie. If these people are in positions of power and influence then the entire CUK Higherarchy must be corrupt to allow it to continue, conversely if they are so numerous then the majority of CUK players are being allowed to continue within the organisation without following the Ethical tenets that formed the organisation in the first place.
What I will accept is differences in play style/progression form subgroups within the CUK guild, these subgroups evolve into cliques and in turn these cliques inevitably evolve into splinter groups/guilds. Now that I have seen on a regular basis.
Tolerance is an easy thing to preach, but when you log in and find that you are the 7th man of your level online in a game which supports 6 to a group or you find yourself excluded from groups because "Group X always plays together" it can be a very difficult thing to practice. Saying that we should all get along and everything will be fine is a great concept, but given 200 different personalities which while still being fair and honest gamers have distinctly different agendas - a concept is all it can be, it's unworkable in practice. QED
Nymawae
Eternal Trial Member
I still tend to think its a minority of people that get into the politics thing, it's just seems to get others wound up as well, then mates support mates and before you know it there's a bun fight of epic scale going on..
The whole 7th man problem happens even in splinter guilds (and guilds that have nothing to do with CUK at all). It's not a CUK thing and writing off CUK as in in game guild wouldn't solve that problem..
Just to put things into perspective, for longer than I care to remember going back over playing games (and in fact the odd RL PnP RPG) this isn't a solely CUK problem. Almost every guild of more than 6 people seems to have splits, bust ups, arguments, reconciliations etc, just take a look at almost any large guilds forums.
Until guilds start doing psycometric testing and personality profiling before letting people into very small tightly controlled guilds this will carry on happening.
Strangely enough, and contrary to my complaints in a former MMG, I'm starting to believe the only way a guild will hold together in a game is for it to have a very strong leadership of GM and officers with clear and enforcable rules, expectations and code of play. In (brace yourselves) EQ Unny was a very good example of how to do this (although it drove him to dispair). Unny respected and listened to the guild and officers, but ultimately it was not a democracy, because he held the respect of the vast majority was able to make the final decision about things with no ifs buts or maybes.
At least that way the members know where they stand, what the rules are, everyone has equal rights and opportunities and ulimately if it's not your style of guild you option is to join a guild that suits your play style rather than launch a revolution
In CUK I guess part of the problem is there is no "leadership" and rules as such beyond Roch on the forums, so every in game guild ends up with some poor bugger nominated as GM who then has no real authority to do anything other than get whinged at
Just thinking out loud here.. feel free to shoot me down in flames
The whole 7th man problem happens even in splinter guilds (and guilds that have nothing to do with CUK at all). It's not a CUK thing and writing off CUK as in in game guild wouldn't solve that problem..
Just to put things into perspective, for longer than I care to remember going back over playing games (and in fact the odd RL PnP RPG) this isn't a solely CUK problem. Almost every guild of more than 6 people seems to have splits, bust ups, arguments, reconciliations etc, just take a look at almost any large guilds forums.
Until guilds start doing psycometric testing and personality profiling before letting people into very small tightly controlled guilds this will carry on happening.
Strangely enough, and contrary to my complaints in a former MMG, I'm starting to believe the only way a guild will hold together in a game is for it to have a very strong leadership of GM and officers with clear and enforcable rules, expectations and code of play. In (brace yourselves) EQ Unny was a very good example of how to do this (although it drove him to dispair). Unny respected and listened to the guild and officers, but ultimately it was not a democracy, because he held the respect of the vast majority was able to make the final decision about things with no ifs buts or maybes.
At least that way the members know where they stand, what the rules are, everyone has equal rights and opportunities and ulimately if it's not your style of guild you option is to join a guild that suits your play style rather than launch a revolution
In CUK I guess part of the problem is there is no "leadership" and rules as such beyond Roch on the forums, so every in game guild ends up with some poor bugger nominated as GM who then has no real authority to do anything other than get whinged at
Just thinking out loud here.. feel free to shoot me down in flames