Early Wii Pre-order (not open to public till this evening)

[Gottaa]

Resident Evil for the Wii
Resident evil for the 36
Final Fantasy for Wii
GTA on 360
Metal Gear - Staying on PS exclusive it looks like though the developers/Hideo Kojima working on 360 titles
Tekken - 360 has it's "exclusive" fighter, Wii I don't think does it, but does have Dragon Ball Z
Virtua Fighter - As above, it's a beat em up

So that's 2 beat em up's locked into the PS line. I guess I just don't see "tired old exclusives" really doing much in the next-gen battle. Now something like MotorStorm I can see as grabbing people but are people really going to spend all that money (and put money into an unproven technology) for a game which really hasn't changed in 5 or 10 years ?

Note: My brother asked about PS3, I said it had Blu-Ray, explained the HD stuff going on and HD-DVD and Blu-ray is Betamax/VHS of old and he said "so that then" and he's LOVES his PS2, infact he's nicked mine cos he's broke.

Games make a games console, not exclusives, not media centres, not the fact it can put the tea on while you drive home from work.

 

[Treebeard]

The other thing on pricing is its the 60gb version that will be 400+. The 20gb (same as 360) is 350.

 

[Gottaa]

a bargain then !

With the price you also have to look at the advance in tech.

To hopefully make the point clear, Blu-Ray is not a proven media format. Who in there right mind wants to go down the VHS/Betamax fiasco again ?

That is my main stumbling block on the PS3, I'll let it off it's odd processor choice and leave the developers crying in there hands to best use it in the real world (not simply dropping ducks in a bowl of water)

 

[Treebeard]

Resident Evil for the Wii
Resident evil for the 36
Final Fantasy for Wii
GTA on 360
Metal Gear - Staying on PS exclusive it looks like though the developers/Hideo Kojima working on 360 titles
Tekken - 360 has it's "exclusive" fighter, Wii I don't think does it, but does have Dragon Ball Z
Virtua Fighter - As above, it's a beat em up

So that's 2 beat em up's locked into the PS line. I guess I just don't see "tired old exclusives" really doing much in the next-gen battle. Now something like MotorStorm I can see as grabbing people but are people really going to spend all that money (and put money into an unproven technology) for a game which really hasn't changed in 5 or 10 years ?

Note: My brother asked about PS3, I said it had Blu-Ray, explained the HD stuff going on and HD-DVD and Blu-ray is Betamax/VHS of old and he said "so that then" and he's LOVES his PS2, infact he's nicked mine cos he's broke.

Games make a games console, not exclusives, not media centres, not the fact it can put the tea on while you drive home from work.

No disrespect mate but your way of looking at it is not the way the large majority of gamers will look at it.

You say games make a console and you are right; games like VF, Tekken, Res Evil, Metal Gear, FF, DMC etc etc. The Wii and 360 have their games, and there will be crossover more so than before, but ultimately the PS3 will have the biggest selection of the most desired licenses unless Microsoft suddenly crack Japan overnight.

Even two years into it the 360 is still struggling to produce must have games. GoW seems more graphics than game from what I've played so far and while some of the other games are ok, there's nothing that sets itself apart. (Although I like the look of Lost Planet).

 

[Treebeard]

a bargain then !

To hopefully make the point clear, Blu-Ray is not a proven media format. Who in there right mind wants to go down the VHS/Betamax fiasco again ?

That is my main stumbling block on the PS3, I'll let it off it's odd processor choice and leave the developers crying in there hands to best use it in the real world (not simply dropping ducks in a bowl of water)

I'm not talking about Blu-Ray, couldn't give a monkeys arse for it tbh. I'm talking graphics horse-power between the two.

And yes, I consider an extra �70 for something more powerful than the 360 with a bigger and better games catalogue a bargain. As I said, its hard to find games that make you want to buy a 360 two years in although admittedly some of them are good games.

While I understand you may have something against Sony, your thinking seems blinkered.

 

[Gottaa]

It's nothing against Sony, it's as simple as not wanting to "invest" money into something which 2 years down the line could be redundant. And that's what HD-DVD or Blu-Ray could be, if the 360 had it intergrated into it and a part of it I'd totaly discount ever owning a 360 as well, as it is though MS seem wise to the fact no market leader is there yet so if you want an HD-DVD drive you buy one for the 360.

As far as being a normal gamer, I play games, have a N64, Gamecube, PS2, X-Box, PC all with I'd guess 10 to 15 titles (more for the PC obviously) so while I don't play as much as I used to I'm certainly not the only person who feels this way.

As far as raw power everything I've read says in test the PS3 just inches ahead of the 360 but in how you actually achieve those figures (as in the developers, so therefore development time and cost to the person) the PS3 is harder to get the most of due to it multiple cut down processors compared to the multi-processing approach the 360 took (and indeed PC's are taking). A recent example of ease of moving to multi-processor I'm told is, the recent changes to the Steam engine to make it use multiple processors. I don't know much as I'm not looking at upgrading the PC at home for abit (when I do I'll pay more attention to multi-processors).

Part of what makes the PS3 a good deal is that it includes a Blu-Ray disc, it'll store much more than DVD, but that doesn't mean, more space = more graphics, there is the limitation on memory, GPU throughput and memory allocation (less with the PS3 although it has multiple GPU's) which again while technically rocking people's worlds in real terms isn't much of an improvement on the 360s much simpler and easier to develop for approach.

And if Blu-ray fails as the new media format where exactly does that leave the PS3, it's media creation costs and the developers ...

That may come across as a little rant but while yes I do like the Wii I'm not blinkered and just blindly shouting "GAMES ARE ABOUT FUN NOT GRAPHICS" I have looked into the PS3 and less-so into the 360 and when I was done I wasn't happy, HD gaming may well be the future for some (read gamers, not perhaps mass market) but that doesn't mean people should fall for all the marketing hype.

 

[Entropy]

Worst. Comparison. EVER!!

Veyron is a million plus quid. The PS3 is 500 quid. You can't even compare a Porsche Carrera GT (350k) to a Bugatti Veryron!



Basically with a PS3 you're getting a state of the art gaming console PLUS a new technology hi-definition video format. Its more expensive than the 360, yes, but no way have they priced it out of the market.

I'm sure you're well aware of the point I was making behind the comparison. In future however, I'll make sure I restrain my use of hyperbole, and stick to something less likely to result in derision .

On a more important note, I think it's a bit precipitous to say that "no way have they priced it out of the market". North America is pretty affluent, and the majority of people considering purchase of a PS3 thought it would cost a lot less than it does (read on some eurogamer article). Also, from what I've gleaned from this board, I think I can confidently say that you're not representative financially of the majority of the PS3's target demographic. There are a lot of people that aren't prepared to spend �500 on the PS3 and then buy an LCD TV too.

Anyway, couple the high PS3 price point with significantly higher game prices (�50 for a PS3, and then compare that with �33 for a Wii game (though note that retailers have inflated this for Christmas)). Taking all of this into account, and incorporating an earlier argument of yours that gameplay is perhaps the most important factor in a game, and you've gone some way to making my point for me. The launch titles for the PS3 have been generally woeful, despite the power of the console and its graphics capability. Whether you prefer the Wii and its games or not (and I do), at least you don't have to pay as much for shit titles.

I don't know if the Wii will be a gimmick, and have little lasting appeal or not, but to be honest, I don't really fancy spending hours in front my TV playing games anyway. I'm much more interested in something that I can pick up and play for short bursts of time when I haven't got anything better to do, or played pissed with mates when I come home from a club. Perhaps, with that in mind, I'm really the kind of person Nintendo is intending to tempt into the fold. Having said that though, I think it's important not to be prejudiced against them just because it's a console perceived as "cutesy" and for kids. I've got no problem with blood, but I'll take gameplay over gore any day.

 

[Entropy]

Enough people were prepared to pay �1000+. Console buyers won't bat an eyelid at the �400-�450 price point for the PS3 tbh. Console upgrades are not needed as regularly as a PC.

That's with significant demand and restricted supply. If they can shift 4 million units before dropping their price point, I'll shut up. And I'd be surprised if they drop their price point any time soon, as they're already losing about 300 dollars per unit and that is with VERY, VERY low cell yields, suggesting that it's probably costing them a hell of a lot more.

 

[Treebeard]

And if Blu-ray fails as the new media format where exactly does that leave the PS3, it's media creation costs and the developers ...

It leaves it as probably, whether we like it or not, the most popular gaming console of the next gen and thats ultimately what its all about, not blue-ray.

 

[Ky]

Blimey Ent, precipitous and hyperbole all in one paragraph. Have you swallowed a dictionary today?

You just stated "significant demand and restricted supply". Of course it will be like that. When you are the manafacturer you can determine the supply levels, as well you know. Plus, if you think that the PS3 won't have HUGE demand, given the popularity of the PSX, you're smoking too many drugs. Sony will put a whole wealth of marketing behind it and all the muppets with more cash than sense will be putting in their pre-orders a.s.a.p.

I expect Sony to win the market easily. Nintendo may well do OK because of their market differentiation with the Wii, something I said at the start of my diatribe on this matter. I expect the advantage M$ initially had by being the first to market to be eroded by Q3 next year.

 

[Treebeard]

That may come across as a little rant but while yes I do like the Wii I'm not blinkered and just blindly shouting "GAMES ARE ABOUT FUN NOT GRAPHICS" I have looked into the PS3 and less-so into the 360 and when I was done I wasn't happy, HD gaming may well be the future for some (read gamers, not perhaps mass market) but that doesn't mean people should fall for all the marketing hype.

But what made you happy when you looked at the Wii other than its by Nintendo and features Nintendo's usual style of game?

I should point out that I am a Nintendo fanboy. I started off with the NES (the SNES being the greatest console ever imo) and have bought every N console on release day up until this point.

I think the Wii has some good selling points, but in comparison, N are falling too far behind and tbh its the Gameboy/DS thats kept them going. I think you can dismiss graphics horsepower and media options and online functionality only so long before it bites you on the bum.

With the controller they are forcing themselves into even more of a niche market and I bet in the next couple of years people who bought the Wii bought it to play the latest Zelda and Mario rather than because of the controller. I hope its not but the controller looks a bit gimmicky now. How many developers will jump on board with the controller, releasing games that work with it well and for us in Europe the bigger question is how many good games using the controller get released here?

 

[Ky]

I mainly agree with Tree although I still think it might work because of its "kiddie" appeal. Time will tell.

 

[Gottaa]

It leaves it as probably, whether we like it or not, the most popular gaming console of the next gen and thats ultimately what its all about, not blue-ray.

So your saying an absolutely kick ass entertainment console produced by Sony tomorrow which uses Betamax as it's main format would still be the most popular today, simply because the last entertainment console they made was popular ?

The reason I see it being about blu-ray is for a couple of points:
1. There expensive to make, if Blu-Ray doesn't win the war they will (going on betamax history) become less used, more expensive to get and soon fade to nothing, and a games console with no new media arriving on it is ... a dead games console
2. A games console raving about it's disc based storage capacity in todays modern age seem blind to the fact downloaded media and content is already taking it's teeny tiny baby steps, in 5 years time would you
a) Goto blockbusters and rent a movie
b) Goto blockbusters and buy a movie
c) Sit arse on seat, press a few buttons, watch movie as it downloads to your media centre
3. Disc space <> quality graphics. Sure you can include from FMV (woot more cut scenes ....), more textures but you still have to pump them textures through the GPU(s) to get it onto the screen and that means more space, graphics still need compressing and tweaking and fiddling (despite what MotorStorm people said I don't believe they put uncompressed textures on the disc, the GPU's would explode and run home crying), so what your left with is ... more space they try and fill up, fill it with a game, wait longer, pay more.


I do understand PS3 isn't all about Blu-Ray or indeed HD, but Blu-ray is a core component of it and it's a component which is unproven, and if I brought a PS3 I'd want to bloody well be sure the media everything comes on was either proprietary (ala N64) or already the market leader (ala PS2/DVD)

 

[Gottaa]

Just out of interest is "kiddie appeal" the same thing that convinced my Dad to get a DS Lite ? (DS Lite is for kiddies as well I'm guessing)

 

[Janie]

We have an Xbox 360. It have nothing that appeals to me, we had an Xbox erm 1(or359 however it works) befoer and that had Top Spin on which was the only console i've enjoyed. However Top Spin 2 on the newer Xbox was dire (I thought games (unlike films) are supposed to get better each sequel?). On the plus side the new Xbox has the football manager game he enjoys so much, so It means my PC is once again mine (he used to hog the PC playing this management game most evening)

 

[Gottaa]

How you play tennis on the Wii for Janie

 

[Treebeard]

So your saying an absolutely kick ass entertainment console produced by Sony tomorrow which uses Betamax as it's main format would still be the most popular today, simply because the last entertainment console they made was popular ?

Its a games machine.

I don't quite get what you are getting at. Blu-bloody-ray or not its a games console and thats primarily (in most cases only) reason people will buy it for with whatever film format it supports being an after thought. Blu-ray will not define its success as a games console.

Not sure what else to say tbh.

 

[Entropy]

Blimey Ent, precipitous and hyperbole all in one paragraph. Have you swallowed a dictionary today?

You just stated "significant demand and restricted supply". Of course it will be like that. When you are the manafacturer you can determine the supply levels, as well you know. Plus, if you think that the PS3 won't have HUGE demand, given the popularity of the PSX, you're smoking too many drugs. Sony will put a whole wealth of marketing behind it and all the muppets with more cash than sense will be putting in their pre-orders a.s.a.p.

I expect Sony to win the market easily. Nintendo may well do OK because of their market differentiation with the Wii, something I said at the start of my diatribe on this matter. I expect the advantage M$ initially had by being the first to market to be eroded by Q3 next year.

Well, they were the right words to use . I'm still shit at crosswords though.

I never get Sony's marketing campaigns. I remember the PS2 was advertised with a duck, and the epithet "the third place". The PSP has been advertised with some carpet fluff. I don't know how the fuck they're so successful!

It's interesting that you suggest Sony have determined supply levels. I'm pretty sure they haven't. They've had to stagger the launch between Japan, US, and Europe because of that exact problem. Low cell yields and expensive components have meant that producing the consoles has been very difficult. That's why they've had a sell out, because obviously the first X people are prepared to pay retail price and more for the console on the back of the success of the PS2. Having said that though, if the unit base doesn't grow, developers aren't going to be attracted to the platform because it'll naturally mean fewer sales. The situation re the PSP is an excellent example of this problem.

 

[Ky]

I'm sure thats the line that Sony are using. Its a pretty easy line to use to make sure that demand is outstripping supply. Every single manufacturer in the world wants demand to be far greater than available supply because it means the price will always be higher. If you can artificially affect the market in that way, you're going to do it. I know I would.

 

[Gottaa]

Hmm maybe I'm not being clear.

Blu-Ray = media format being used by PS3 on everything (i.e Games)
Games discs for PS3 = Blu-Ray discs

If Blu-Ray doesn't win (and it may well, who knows, but if it doesn't) you have a games console with media which will not reduce in price, large numbers of Blu-rays discs being created will cost more because less companies will be creating them/supporting them which means the people making games will have a harder time getting the game from there desk onto your PS3, which could mean greater cost, less numbers available (of discs), etc, etc.

Blu-Ray discs are expensive to produce and there is the belief they will become cheaper as the production increases and so they learn, if as a media format it fails it will impact the games as far as I see it.

Or am I wrong and if blu-ray were to fail it would have zero impact on the console/games/production of said games ?

I do understand Blu-Ray as it is right now is not defining of itself but it is a large part of the cost of the PS3 and if you took out Blu-Ray and put in HD-DVD it would have little impact on the games but ... hmmm not sure I can explain myself clearly.

Anyone else get the gist of what I'm saying and can put it clearer ?